Summary

Santiago Bernabeu Stadium in Madrid, Spain, is the iconic home of legendary soccer club Real Madrid. A recent five-year renovation has transformed the stadium into a modern engineering marvel. Fireproofing and corrosion protection coating systems each played a role in the mega project, and in this episode, Carboline's Europe Director of Project Development, Juan Pablo Ortega, leads a tour of his favorite team's new digs.

Also, is it possible for another country to have larger portion sizes than America?

Timestamps

Click to follow along with the transcript:

• 00:00 – Introduction
• 02:32 – Summarizing the renovation of Santiago Bernabeu Stadium
• 05:10 – Differing fire ratings for different uses of a structure
• 06:15 – Why both cementitious and intumescent fireproofing types were used
• 08:20 – Specifying heavy-duty Pyrocrete 40
• 10:52 – Nullifire SC902 intumescent fireproofing was uniquely qualified for this project
• 13:34 – Primer, fireproofing, and topcoat specification for the retractable trays
• 16:17 – Navigating an aggressive schedule during the COVID-19 pandemic
• 17:20 – Juan Pablo returns to the site
• 18:28 – The four questions

Transcript

Introduction

Toby Wall: Most of us who have favorite sports clubs end up loving the home stadium of that club almost as much as we do the club itself. And with a soccer team-- sorry, a football team-- as beloved as Real Madrid, there's much love for their home pitch, the Santiago Bernabeu Stadium. It's just had a significant renovation that's turned it into an engineering marvel, a marvel that depends on passive fireproofing materials and corrosion protection coatings. Today on The Red Bucket, we see this iconic venue from a unique perspective. We first told this story in a Spanish language bonus episode back in February, so if you haven't already heard that and are more comfortable listening in Spanish, then that's the episode for you.

If you're not a Spanish speaker and you suffered a fear of missing out, then you are in the right place. Juan Pablo, welcome back to The Red Bucket. Perhaps you can introduce yourself once again?

Juan Pablo Ortega: Okay. My name is Juan Pablo Ortega. I am based in our office in Madrid, Spain, and I have been working for Carboline since, 2012, and currently hold the position of Director of Project Development for Europe and, I have a team of fantastic specifier across Europe with whom we work to provide to the, to the industry solution for passive fire protection, uh, coating and, and linings and, uh, working closely with, uh, with our clients, including properties owners, uh, infrastructure and industrial plants, as well as construction companies and engineer firms that, uh, provide service for, for this type of projects.

Toby: Well, thank you, Juan Pablo, for joining us, and especially since this is the second time that you've had to have this conversation. So we are very happy to have you again. The Santiago Bernabeu Stadium in Madrid is well known to any football fan in Europe. Certainly, others around the world, too. But I think, only really diehard fans in the US or in North America would know what that is. If we said those words to them, Santiago Bernabeu, most of us, I don't think would be very familiar, but it is the topic of our conversation today because this very famous stadium in Madrid was the recent site of a renovation project, which involved some passive fire protection and some corrosion protection coatings. And so before we get into those details, maybe you can explain very generally what was the scope of this renovation project.

Summarizing the renovation of Santiago Bernabeu Stadium

Juan Pablo: Well, this, as you mentioned, is a well-known mega project that has involved the complete, uh, refurbishment of the stadium, including the roof, the stands, the logistic ring that, uh, has been built around the stadium. The car park and also the pit in which the retractable trays that support the soccer pitch have been installed. The work began in the summer of 2019 and was completed in 2024 with an initial investment of 575 million euros, which finally increased the expense to over 1 billion euros. Huge project that, uh, up to 800 workers are working simultaneously on the various tasks that need to be carried out inside the stadium. At Carboline, as experts in passive fire protection and corrosion protection, we have contributed our grain of sand to the project, and we are proud to have been able to provide our solution for the project.

Toby: I like that grain of sand reference, that's very appropriate. I think it would help if listeners understood my comment about an engineering marvel. It's the fact that the pitch, the actual playing surface, is removable. And the way that that removal is accomplished is completely innovative. And if you understand how that works, then you'll understand why providing combined fire protection and corrosion protection for that part of this project was a really unique undertaking. Instead of trying to tell you how it works, I think you should just pause this and go over to YouTube and watch a time-lapse video published by Real Madrid. The title of the video is "The amazing pitch retraction at the new Santiago Bernabeu Stadium." Plug that into the search bar. Take two minutes and watch that. Where I wanted to start, though, Juan Pablo, was with the fireproofing, and what is the normal fire rating for a stadium in Spain?

Differing fire ratings for different uses of a structure

Juan Pablo: In a large project like this, there are different fire rating scenarios, yeah? There is no single scenario. Fireproofing or passive fire protection that must be applied to the roof is not the same as that applied to the emergency exit or the main institute of the building, yeah? These different scenarios are governed by the technical building code in accordance with European standards, yeah? The engineering firm that has worked on and collaborated on the project has defined the fire rating based on the area of the building. And most of the structure has been protected for 180 and 120 minutes, but there are also areas with 90 and 60 minutes of protection, and some roofs with 30 minutes of protection.

Yeah. It's a combination.

Why both cementitious and intumescent fireproofing types were used

Toby: And it is pretty common for large structures like this that they would have both types, a cementitious type and an intumescent type fireproofing. The reason why there's both types is that there's highly visible areas where you want it to look nice, and there's areas that are not very highly visible and it doesn't need to look so appealing. At this stadium, there were both types, but as I understand it, the aesthetics of cement versus paint, how those look, was not really the reason why different types were specified. So, can you explain why we have both cementitious and intumescent in the stadium?

Juan Pablo: Yeah, at the, at the Santiago Bernabeu Stadium, both the engineer team and, and the, the owner requested, that the, main institute to be fireproofed with a cement-based mortar, which come, uh, with a standard exposure to the, to the elements including water and, and humidity. And also, cement-based mortar provides greater mechanical strength and resistance to possible impacts. In other areas such as, roof and, emergency stairways, intumescent pain, were chosen. Yeah. And also in the retractable trays, where the weight of the protection system was key. Intumescent paint, were were chosen.

Toby: Okay, so the, the, the weight of the material mattered and you don't want to overload those trays or overload that steel with something very, very heavy. Which, of course, the mortar, the cementitious product is a yes, is heavier compared to the paint.

Juan Pablo: This is one of the reasons to use the intumescent paint in these trays, yeah? Less weight than the cement base.

Toby: And we'll talk about this later, but that, that's one of those examples where the intumescent product, it does look nicer, but in this case, when it's applied to the tray, it's covered up by another layer of coating anyway, so no one would see it. The fireproofing products that we used here were Pyrocrete 40, which is a heavy-duty cement-based material, and the Nullifire SC902, a fast-curing, solvent-based intumescent paint. With regard to the Pyrocrete 40, this is not typically what you might use in a structure like this, but it ended up being specified. So why was Pyrocrete 40 specified?

Specifying heavy-duty Pyrocrete 40

Juan Pablo: Yeah. With Pyrocrete 40, we have tested for both cellulosic and hydrocarbon fire scenarios. It is mainly used to protect refineries and chemical plants. For cellulosic fire, gypsum-based mortar, such as our Perlifoc HP, is more widely used. However, as I mentioned earlier, the owner of the stadium was only considered a cement-based solution due to the weather and the impact on performance.

Toby: And we were familiar with the applicator for this project, and they were familiar with Pyrocrete 40, right? They had previously used it successfully.

Juan Pablo: Yeah, the main contractor that carried out the part of the project using Pyrocrete 40 had already used it previously to protect various refineries and industrial plants in Spain. Pyrocrete 40 is a benchmark mortar in the sector for protecting against hydrocarbon fires. And they have plenty of experience to use it.

Toby: And there's a feature of the design of the stadium following this renovation that can help explain why Pyrocrete 40 was appropriate, because it's only partially enclosed. You mentioned a moment ago that there is some exposure to the exterior environment. Maybe you can just say more about what that exterior exposure means or how that influences the specification.

Juan Pablo: This was one of the main reasons why we chose cementitious mortar instead of the usual gypsum-based mortar. Our Pyrocrete 40 mortar has been extensively tested for outdoor use in an environment with aggressive chemical components. This is one of the main reasons because the fireproofing mortar is affected by humidity and could be a problem in the long-term service, yeah?

Nullifire SC902 intumescent fireproofing was uniquely qualified for this project

Toby: And onto the intumescent product, the Nullifire SC902, where was this applied and why was that the choice for those locations?

Juan Pablo: Nullifire SC902 has been used to protect the retractable trays against fire. The challenge that we faced when we were asked to fireproof the trays was significant, yeah? We had to provide a durable intumescent solution that could withstand the elements and also weekly movements. This was something that had never been done before. We proposed our Nullifire SC902 solution, which we have used to fireproof many projects where the structure has been protected in the workshop before being moved to its final location. It had been used in other stadiums such as the Copenhagen Arena in Denmark and in large industrial plant infrastructure, car park, and other building without any incident during transport and assembly process, performing fantastically without suffering any major damage. This product is a hybrid solvent-based intumescent paint with high solid content, which provides a certain flexibility and is hard enough to be transported. Thanks to this combination of properties, we saw that it was the ideal solution for the project, and it was accepted by the engineer, the project manager, and the management team.

Toby: And you told me, when we first talked about this, that it was important for the SC902 to be applied to its full specified thickness in a single coat. Why was that important?

Juan Pablo: You know, this type of, uh, mega project have a, a very strict, schedule in in the production, yeah, of the steel, and with all the protection and in this case, the applicator and the, and the manufacturer of the steel structure need to do a, a big effort to, follow the, the schedule for the project and thanks to our solution that you can apply all the thickness that, uh, was required in a single coat, and then, uh, one day later you can apply the topcoat and, and then one day later you can move the, the, the steel, uh, was one of the critical point to, to select our material.

Toby: And so on the subject of the other coatings, the SC902 is just part of a system for what is protecting the steel on these retractable trays. So what else is in the system? What was the primer, and what was the topcoat?

Primer, fireproofing, and topcoat specification for the retractable trays

Juan Pablo: Regarding intumescent paint, we need to test the primer compatibility product and also the topcoat compatibility with intumescent paint. And in this case, with the Nullifire SC902, we have tested a complete coating system that provide not only the fire protection also, uh, have the protection against, the weather and the conditions, okay, and can cover external atmosphere for the steel protection. And in this case, we follow our system tested that is apply 150 microns of Carbomastic 18 FC. It's an epoxy primer, also high solid and fast curing, and also then we apply in the same day we can apply the Nullifire SC902, and then on the top of the intumescent paint, we apply our Carbothane 134.

Toby: And how many microns of the 134?

Juan Pablo: Yeah. We apply 75 micron.

Toby: So like three mils, if you're in imperial units, and three, what, five mils, maybe of the Carbomastic 18 FC.

Juan Pablo: Yes. Five, six. Yes.

Toby: Those retractable trays, that's not a normal exposure, right? They're, they're covered in earth. There's turf, there's grass over top of the earth, and then that's being watered and it's being fertilized.

So, what does all of that activity do? Like, how does it impact the fire protection or the corrosion protection?

Juan Pablo: Yeah, that is the point that the system that we recommend is cover the, the external atmosphere of the external exposure of the steel in combination with the, with intumescent paint. And, obviously, this is something that has its own, you know, ambient. Okay. Because this is like a cove that you introduce this tray and have all the weather conditions controlled, okay, for the growth of the pitch. And this is something that they give all the treatment that they need for the pitch, also.

And with the different chemical components and also the lights, for the growth of the pitch. Also, all these conditions are unique conditions, but we use the best coating system that we can justify with external exposure.

Navigating an aggressive schedule during the COVID-19 pandemic

Toby: Earlier, you said that the project ultimately went from 2019 up until last year. Obviously, we had a pandemic in the middle of that, which really slowed things down. But it was an aggressive schedule. So, in terms of applying the coatings, our little part of it, our grain of sand, how much time did we have, and how did the applicators navigate such a strict timeline?

Juan Pablo: In the case of the trays, we need to do all the, all the trays in approximately four months. It was a really, really aggressive application schedule because was a big area to apply and was a big effort for the applicator company also for our side to provide all the material that they need in a very short period. And also give all the technical assistance during the project and all the meetings that we need to attend for inspection and to check that everything goes in the correct way, yeah? With a very, very aggressive schedule.

Juan Pablo returns to the site

Toby: Have you been back to the stadium?

Juan Pablo: Yes, uh, I was with my son. I am a big fan of Real Madrid and is the team that plays in the stadium and was a couple of time with my son. For me, it was amazing, yeah? To be in this new stadium. And I'm really proud to be part of the construction of this amazing project, yeah?

Toby: Just a really great experience to have, and if you're a big fan of the team now, you like, you have seen more of their home maybe than anybody else-- most other people have ever seen. It just feels significant to me.

Juan Pablo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a fantastic experience during the work process, yeah? You can see, you know, all the stadium for the different, uh, areas without any limit, okay, because we are moving into the project like in our house after some months working on the project. Yeah. And it was a really wonderful experience. Yeah.

The four questions

Toby: Okay. We will move on then to the four questions. These are four fun questions that don't have anything to do with the project or the work that we were just discussing. So I hope you're ready, Juan Pablo, this will be a little silly. I have a question about siestas. This is not something we do. Yeah. We do not do this in the United States. But if you are traveling and you go someplace where siesta is not a part of that culture, do you still try to take a siesta for yourself, or do you not do it?

Juan Pablo: I never do a siesta. Yeah. I know, I think this is typical that everybody thinks that in Spain, everybody takes a nap, something like that, in the middle of the day. But this is not true. Yeah.

Toby: So, so that's not actually very common.

Juan Pablo: No. This is not actually very common. And, I have some people who are lucky and can do it, but in my case, I never do. Okay. And during the weekend also we have some, some problem with the children and with the family is also really challenged. It's complicated for my side, but I have some friends who are really fond of the siesta and they never tried jumping, the siesta time. Yeah.

Toby: I feel like I would enjoy it, and I have two small children, so I would need it. It would be nice if I could do it, but you and I have that in common. We have to work for a living, so we can't really just stop and take a nap.

Juan Pablo: Yes.

Toby: All right. Question number two. If I came to visit you in Spain, would you introduce me to Spanish cuisine? What would you start with first?

Juan Pablo: Yeah, my recommendation regarding Spanish cuisines is more focused on the local cuisine because it's not the same cuisine that we have in the north of Spain or in the Mediterranean Sea sites, or in the south of Spain, yeah? In each area, we have a special plate. Yeah, yeah. For example, the handmade paella. That is fantastic. Yeah. That you can, you are on the Mediterranean side. This is like the famous plate in this region. Yeah. But, if you go to the north of Spain, areas like Asturias, you have a fabada or you have different special plates in the local area.

And then this is my recommendation that you taste the local cuisine. Yeah.

Toby: Which local cuisine is your favorite?

Juan Pablo: You know, I am really lucky, thanks to the job, I visit more or less all the areas in Spain, and it's really complicated to find a place that has bad cuisine, yeah? In all the places, north, south, Madrid, and Barcelona, all the places have very good cuisines, and are okay. If you tell me something, maybe in the north of Spain, because the food is really good, has very good quality of food, and also the quantities are really big. Yeah.

Toby: I see.

Juan Pablo: Yeah.

Toby: Like in the United States, where the portions are too big.

Juan Pablo: Crazy, crazy big. Yeah. For me, it is impossible. I never finish all the food and put it on the plate. Yeah.

Toby: Number three. What sounds better to you? A vacation where you are hiking through the mountains, or a vacation where you just lie around on the beach.

Juan Pablo: You know, I normally spend my holidays on vacation in the north of Spain. Okay. And we are really lucky because we can combine both. Yeah. Wow. Because we have a mountain very close to the beach, depending on the day.

You go to the mountain or you go to the beach. Yeah. And that is the best, in my case, I am really lucky. Yeah. Because we have very good weather and uh, and if it's really hot day, I go to the beach, but then if some days it's a little bit cloudy or it's raining a little bit, something like that, I, I go to the hike in the mountain and enjoy also in the mountain. Yeah.

Toby: Maybe I should delete that because you make it sound so great, everybody's gonna want to come do that. Yeah. And then it'll be crowded.

Juan Pablo: This is close to paradise.

Toby: Alright, final question. This reminds me of paradise, too. What would you do if you had a surprise day off?

Juan Pablo: Hmm. I am a really simple man. Just for me, spend time with the family and maybe do a special plan. Okay. A special thing with the children and with my wife. That is enough for me, yeah?

Toby: Well, Juan Pablo, thank you very, very much for joining us for this episode and for sharing your work at the Santiago Bernabeu Stadium. It's a fantastic project, and it's fantastic to have you join The Red Bucket not once but twice to repeat yourself, basically. So, thank you very much for being here.

Juan Pablo: You are welcome.